US3166999A - Apparatus for treating photographic film - Google Patents

Description

Jan. 26, 1965 G. DEMENT 3,166,999

APPARATUS FOR TREATING PHOTOGRAPHIC FILM Filed March 28, 1962 3 Sheets-Sheet 1 IN V EN TOR.

Jan. 26, 1965 G. DEMQENT 3,166,999

APPARATUS FOR TREATING PHOTOGRAPHIC FILM Filed March 28, 1962 3 Sheets-Sheet 2 Jan. 26, 1965 G. DEMENT APPARATUS FOR TREATING PHOTOGRAPHIC FILM 3 Sheets-Sheet 3 Filed March 28, 1962 INVENTOR. JAZZ/y fie wz/z/ United States Patent C) 3,166,999 APPARATUS FOR 'EPEATING iHUTGGRAlHEsC FILM 1 Gridley Dement, 1733 Milwaukee Ave, Chicago, Ill. Filed Mar. 28, 1%2, Ser. No. 184,093 9 Claims. (Cl. 95-95) The present invention relates to photographic devices and more particularly to devices finding particular but not necessarily exclusive use in the developing or treating of relatively large size sheets of photographic film, paper and the like in a fiat condition with a photographic liquid.

The principal object of the present invention is to facilitate the treatment of relatively large sheets of photographic film, paper and the like in a fiat condition with a minimum amount of treatment liquid. More specifically, it is an object to provide an improved device of the above character which is capable of handling large sheets of film without the necessity of rolling the same for immersion in a tank or tray containing the solution to be applied to the photographic sheet and which occupies less floor space than the area of the sheet being treated.

Another object of this invention is to provide an improved device of the foregoing character which enables the operator to wet all portions of the sheet being treated substantially simultaneously so that the treatment proceeds at a uniform rate.

A further object of the present invention is to construct an improved photographic device of the foregoing character in a manner such that the progress of the treatment can be visually observed by the operator and can thereby be controlled so that the treatment, such as the development of film, is carried out uniformly and efiiciently while retaining the advantages specified.

Still another object of the present invention is to provide a device of the foregoing character which finds particular, but not exclusive, use for the development of large sheets of film so that the areas of such large sheets can conveniently be selectively over or under developed and wherein the developing process can be readily and completely controlled at all times by the operator.

A more specific object of the present invention is to reduce the amount of treatment liquid such as developer required for a given size sheet or film by utilizing a relatively small amount of liquid with respect to the size of the sheet being treated and by recycling the liquid and directing the same uniformly over the sheet being treated. A more detailed object of the present invention is to make the use of active ingredients in the treatment liquid more efiicient and economical and thereby reduce the amount required of such ingredients as well as facilitate solution of such ingredients in water or other liquid.

it is still a further object of the present invention to reduce the amount of floor space required for the treatment of large sheets of photographic material while improving the efiiciency, accuracy, controllaoility or reliability of the treatment of the film or sheet.

Still a further object of the present invention is to provide a device of the foregoing characteristics in which the treatment liquid can contact simultaneously both sides of a sheet being treated.

More specifically, it is an object of the invention to provide a tray having a unique structure which facilitates contacting simultaneously both sides of a sheet with liquid without necessitating the treatment of one side and the subsequent removal of the sheet, reversal and treatment of the other side. in more detail, it is an object to maintain a liquid film on both sides of a sheet being treated while supportin the sheet in a tray over the entire surface of the sheet.

Another object of the present invention is to provide an 3,166,999 Patented Jan. 26, 1965 improved device for treating large sheets of film and the like with various types of treating liquids such as developer, short stop and fixing liquids. More specifically, it is a related object to provide a device for treating film and the like with a plurality of liquids in which the danger of such liquids being intermixed is substantially reduced.

Other objects and advantages of the present invention will become apparent as the following description proceeds taken in connection with the accompanying drawings wherein:

FIGURE 1 is a perspective view of a photographic developing device embodying the present invention.

PEG. 2 is a section view taken substantially in the plane of line 22 of FIG. 1.

PEG. 3 is a section view taken substantially in the plane of line 33 of FIG. 2.

H6. 4 is a section view similar to that shown in FIG. 2 but illustrating a modified form of the invention.

FIG. 5 is a perspective View of another form of the treating device embodying the present invention.

PEG. 6 is a front elevation view of a carrier for a treating tray as shown in FIG. 5.

PEG. 7 is a section view taken substantially in the plane of line 77 of FIG. 5.

PEG. 8 is a fragmentary front elevation view of a modied form of the present invention constructed for treating both sides of a sheet material with a plurality of liquids.

FIG. 9 is a section view taken substantially in the plane of line 9-9 on FIG. 8.

FiG. 10 is a section view taken substantially in the plane of line 1t516 of FIG. 8.

FIG. 11 is an enlarged view of the tray bottom shown in FIG. 8 and illustrating the surface configuration thereof.

FIG. 12 is a section view taken substantially in the plane of line 1212 of PEG. 11.

While a certain illustrative method and form of apparatus for the treatment of photographic sheets, such as the development of photographs, has been shown in the drawings and will be described below in considerable detail, it should be understood that there is no intention to limit the invention to the specific forms disclosed. On the contrary, the intention is to cover all modifications, alternative constructions, equivalents and uses falling within the spirit and scope of the invention, as expressed in the appended claims.

The invention here involved is a device Which is capable of supporting a large fiat sheet of photographic material such as film so that a photographic solution such as developer can be directed onto the sheet and at the same time the progress of the treatment can be observed. For purposes of simplicity in the ensuing description reference will be made to the use of the device embodying the present invention for the development of film. It should be understood, however, that the device is suitable for dry photographic or other operations. One illustrative developer device embodying the invention is illustrated in the drawings and comprises a generally rectangular housing, which is somewhat larger than the largest sheet of film to be developed, formed by a pair of spaced side walls 11 connected with a pair of spaced end walls 12. The walls and other components of the device are formed of a material such as stainless steel or plastic which is capable of resisting the action of the solution, such as developer liquid which is used.

For supporting a sheet of film 14 to be developed, as shown in FIG. 1, a tray-like portion is formed within the housing by the provision of a panel 15 Within the area bounded by the walls 11, 12. The panel 15 defines the bottom of a tray including projecting portions of the walls 11 and 12. The bottom panel 15 is mounted within the housing in any suitable manner and may be sealed therein to prevent developer fluid from leaking out of the tray. To this end the mounting desirably comprises a channel 16 defined by a pair of spaced angle members 18, extending around the walls 11, i2. The panel 1 is positioned with the channel and a suitable sealing strip 19, formed of Neoprene or like substance, is employed to form a seal. Alternatively, the housing may be constructed in one piece of vacuum formed plastic.

A sheet of film is supported in a flat position for developing by holding it against the tray bottom panel with suitable clips 17. These clips are preferably of the spring type although any suitable clip device may be used.

In order to develop a film supported on the bottom panel of the tray, means are provided for applying a developer liquid thereto. One illustrative means is shown in FIGS. 1 and 2 and comprises a spray gun connected through a pump 21 to a trough 22 formed adjacent to the bottom edge of the developer tray. The tray can be constructed, for example by the provision of an outer wall 24 having an inturned upper edge portion 25 and joined to or integral with the lower housing wall 12, and to the adjacent lower portions of the side walls 11. The trough is of suflicient depth to contain enough developer fluid 26 for developing the largest size of film sheet which can be accommodated.

Developer fluid is applied to the film sheet supported in the tray in the form of a spray or low pressure solid stream pumped from the trough through a hose 28 to the spray gun 20 from which it is directed onto the film as shown in FIG. 1. A solid stream of developer is preferable because it causes less splashing and less aeration of the developer.. The developer cascades down and ofi of the film and is collected in the trough 22 for reuse. As an alternative to the spray gun, a stationary spray manifold 29 can be aifixed to the upper end panel so that the spray will be directed downwardly onto a film (FIG. 4). The manifold is connected to a suitable pump by a pipe 30. As above, the developer fluid cascades downwardly over the film and is collected in the trough 22.

So that an operator may observe the progress of the development, the tray bottom panel 15 is desirably made of a light transmitting material such as a glass or plastic and a bank of suitable lamps 31 such as photographic red lamps are mounted in back of it. One suitable mounting for the lamps is formed by a movable back panel 32 hinged at its lower edge to an end wall 12 and provided at its upper edge with a suitable latch 34 engageable with the upper end Wall 12.

Means are desirably provided for supporting the developer tray housing in a substantially upright or vertically inclined position so that developer liquid will flow downwardly over the film into the trough. While the illustrative means shown in the drawings comprise a base 36 supporting a pair of spaced uprights 37 which are pivotally engaged with the housing to support the latter in the manner of an easel, ceiling or wall suspension means can also be employed.

For controlling the temperature of the developer fluid, there is optionally provided a suitable heat exchange means mounted in the trough. An illustrative means is shown in the drawing and comprises a tubular member 39 extending within the trough 22. If the developer is to be cooled, the tubular member would be connected for circulation of cold water. Alternatively, the heat exchanger may utilize the member 39 as a heating element, in which case the conduits 40 could be connected to a hot water tap. In addition, a suitable temperature sensing device, shown generally at 41, may be provided for use in controlling the temperature of the developer liquid.

To use the developer for the purpose of developing large single sheets of film, the operator places the desired amount of developer in the tr0ugh 22. If desired, the developer can be mixed directly in the trough by adding the required amounts of water and dry developing powder and circulating the mixture through the pump and spray nozzle. A piece of film to be developed is then located 13. on the light transmitting surface or bottom panel 15. If desired, the illuminating lamps 31 may be employed so that the operator can observe the progress of the film developer. The film is then covered with the developer by directing the nozzle 20 at the film as described above.

The present invention is also embodied in a photographic sheet treating device shown in FIGS. 5, 6 and 7. In this modification of the invention there is provided a large relatively shallow tray 15, formed of a material such as clear plastic or the like, supported on a dolly or rack 46 which holds the tray 45 in a vertically inclined position.

For purposes of supporting the film and confining the treating liquid such as developer, the shallow tray 45 has a relatively large rear surface 48 surrounded by upstanding walls or flanges 4? the outer or free edges of which are flared outwardly. Integrally formed or otherwise attached to the outwardly flaring portion 50 of the walls is an inwardly extending peripheral flange 51. This flange serves to confine any liquid within the tray and prevent splashing over the edges. As shown in the drawings, the tray 45 is constructed of a clear plastic so that it is capable of transmitting light from any appropriate source such as from a bank of lamps 52 mounted on the frame 46.

For purposes of holding the film to be developed away from the bottom of the tray, as Well as provide a sufficient amount of igidity to the tray so that it can be supported in an upright position, the bottom wall 48 of the tray 45 is provided with a plurality of corrugations defining spaced ribs 54 projecting inwardly from the bottom of the tray. These ribs may either be integral with the wall 48 or may be attached thereto in any suitable manner so as to project inwardly from the bottom of the tray.

For confining liquid developer as it cascades over the film and into the tray, the tray is provided at one end with a catch basin or trough 55 defined by an enlarged inwardly extending flange or wall 56 secured to the rim 5% as shown in FIG. 5. In the modification shown, the reservoir defining wall 56 is somewhat larger than the inwardly extending peripheral flanges 51 surrounding the other three sides of the tray so that liquid which cascades over a sheet supported in the tray will be collected within the reservoir 55 defined between the wall 54 and the bottom of the tray.

Means are provided for recirculating the treatment liquid which collects in the trough or reservoir 55. One illustrative means shown in the drawings comprises a recirculation pump 53 mounted on the frame 46 supporting the tray. The pump 58 is connected to the reservoir 55 by a conduit 59 and the outlet side of the pump is provided with a flexible hose 60 having a nozzle 61 at one end for directing fluid onto the sheet supported within the tray 46. In order that the nozzle can be supported on the tray when not in use, it is desirably formed with a hook 62 which can engage over the upper edge of the flange 55. For supporting the sheet, the tray is provided with suitable clips 64 which are either integrally mounted thereon or are supported on strips 65 secured to the face of the ridges54. By providing a plurality of such strips it is possible to support various sizes of sheets within the tray.

For supporting the tray the frame 45 is provided with a base 66 having an upwardly extending flange 68 at the front edge thereof. The tray is supported on the base 66 behind the flange 68 which prevents it from slipping off of the frame 46. The tray is held in an upright position by a support 69 extending upwardly from the base 66 and having a cross bar 70 engageable with the rear surface of the tray.

For illuminating the bottom of the tray there is also supported on the base 66 an upwardly extending frame 71 on which the lamps 52 are mounted. This frame, which in the modification shown is generally H-shaped, is formed with a pair of vertically inclined legs 72 formed 53 by a bar 74. The frame 71 is further supported by the tray support 69 by means of rods 75 fixed between the support crossbar 70 and the legs 72. The legs 72 are of a hollow or channel shaped construction and carry the necessary electrical wiring for the lamps 52 mounted thereon.

Sometimes during the use of the device embodying the invention there arises a situation in which it is desired to treat both sides of a sheet of film material si multaneously. In such a case, it is desirable to be able to contact both sides of a sheet of material being treated with the treating liquid, while maintaining the sheet sup ported fiat against the tray during the treatment. To this end, it has been discovered that if the bottom surface of a tray such as described above, is formed with a substantial plurality of minute projections, liquid can flow as a film between the sheet and the tray and thereby Wet the back of the sheet supported on such project-ions. One iliustrative configuration for this purpose is shown in FIGS. 8, 11 and 12. In these figures it will be observed that the bottom surface of a tray is formed with a large number of contiguous pyramids 81 projecting from the surface of the tray and terminating in a relatively blunt point 82. The tray may be conveniently formed of a plastic material, as described above, having the pyramids integrally molded therein. For example, when a sheet of film to be developed is supported on this tray, as described above, liquid, such as developer, can flow back of the sheet through the cavities 84 defined between the peaks of the pyramids 81. The surface configuration shown in FIG. 11 has been illustrated as substantially twice the size of a surface configuration which has been found useful in accordance with the present invention. One illustrative material which has been successfully used in accordance with the present invention has 64 pyramids per sq. in., each pyramid having a height of between about 2 and about of an inch.

When two or more treating liquids, such as developer, hypo, and the like, are to be successively used for treating a sheet of material such as photographic film, it is often desirable to be able to apply the treatments one after the other without stopping to change the liquid in the apparatus. For this purpose, means are provided for retaining more than one liquid composition, and for circulating one of the compositions at a time. One illustrative means, shown in FIGS. 8, 9 and 10, comprises a trough 86 formed at the bottom of the tray 80 in substantially the same manner as described above in connection with the troughs 22 and 55. The trough 86 itself is defined by the marginal side walls 88 and bottom wall 89 and the bottom panel 80 of the tray, together with a front panel 90 secured to the marginal edges of the side walls 88 and bottom wall 89.

For confining liquid within the trough 86, there is provided an auxiliary bottom wall panel 92 extending between opposite side walls 88 and spaced above the bottom end wall 89. Looking at an end edge, the wall 92 is a shallow V-shape so that when the tray is standing upright, liquid will tend to flow towards the apex or center of the wall 92 (see FIG. 8).

The trough $6 is, in the present instance, divided into two compartments by a central partition 94 extending between the end wall of the tray 89 and the V-shaped wall 92 meeting the latter at the apex thereof. The partition 94 also extends between the bottom panel 80 of the tray and the front wall 99 of the trough 86. In this manner the trough is divided into two compartments, indicated generally at 95 and 96. For directing liquid into these compartments the upper trough wall 92 is provided, at a point adjacent the apex and the dividing partition 94, with openings 98, 99 into the respective trough portions '95, 96. By closing one or the other of these openings liquid will flow into the open compartment as it runs down off of the tray bottom 80 into the trough 85. It will be observed that the front panel 90 defining the trough extends above the wall 92 so that a secondary trough 100 which serves temporarily to hold liquid as it flows into the desired compartment.

Leading from each of the compartments and 96 is an outlet conduit 191, 102, respectively, which conduit leads to a direction valve (not shown) and thence to the circulating pump such as the pump shown at 58 in FIG. 6. An additional outlet 104 is provided from the secondary trough so that still another liquid, such as Water can be circulated or applied to the sheet being treated.

The tray embodying the present invention, as shown in FIGS. 8-12, inclusive, can be utilized in the manner described above, for developing film or otherwise treating sheet material. As the device is used, the operator will become skilled in developing or otherwise treating the material such as film to the desired degree. For example, the operator can readily observe a film as it is developed and either under-develop or over-develop portions of it. The developer liquid cascades down over the surfaces of the film and is collected in the trough at the bottom of the tray from which it is circulated. When film is being developed, as the developer liquid is expended, a developer booster may be added. By adjusting the angle of tilt of the tray, the rate at which the developer flows over the surface can be determined.

With the foregoing device, the necessity of rolling large sheets of film to be developed and immersing them in a tank is eliminated. The operator can readily determine the progress of the development or other treatment and can control it to produce the optimum desired result. Moreover, the operator can apply successively a number of different treating liquids as the situation requires.

This application is a continuation-impart of copending application, Serial No. 12,614, filed March 3, 1960, now abandoned.

I claim as my invention:

1. A photographic developing device comprising, in combination, a housing, a shallow tray having a light transmitting bottom panel mounted in said housing, means for mounting said housing and thereby said tray in a vertically inclined position, means for mounting a sheet of film against said bottom panel, a trough in said housing adjacent the lower edge of the tray for containing a developer liquid, a panel hinged to the back of said housing, a plural ity of lights mounted on said panel behind said tray for illuminating said bottom panel and thereby the film mounted thereon, and means communicating with said trough for directing developer liquid from said trough onto said film, said liquid developer directing means including a pump connected to said trough and at least one nozzle for directing liquid onto the film so that said liquid is recycled from said trough onto the film.

2. A device for applying a photographic liquid to a photographic sheet comprising, in combination, a iarge shallow tray having a light transmitting bottom panel, a frame structure for mounting said tray in a vertically inclined position, means for mounting a photographic sheet against said bottom panel, a trough integral with said tray adjacent the lower edge thereof for collecting and containing a photographic liquid, a plurality of lights mounted on said frame behind said tray for illuminating said bottom panel and said photographic sheet mounted thereon, a circulating pump mounted on said frame, conduit means connecting said trough with said pump, conduit menas including a nozzle connected with said pump for directing liquid pumped out of said trough onto the photographic sheet whereby said liquid is recycled as the application of photographic liquid to said sheet progresses, means for selectively connecting said conduit means to a source of liquid for washing said sheet after the same has been developed, and a drain separate from said trough for expelling said liquid to prevent recirculation thereof.

3. A device for applying a succession of liquids to a sheet comprising, in combination, a large shallow tray having a light transmitting bottom panel, a frame struc ture for mounting said tray in a vertically inclined position, means for mounting a sheet against said bottom panel, a trough integral with said tray adjacent the lower edge thereof and defining a plurality of compartments for collecting and containing a plurality of treatment liquids, a plurality of lights mounted on said frame behind said tray for illuminating said bottom panel and said sheet mounted thereon, and means for circulating a selected one of said liquids from one of said trough compartments at a time back onto the sheet being treated and thereafter returing to the same one of said trough compartments, whereby said liquid is recycled as the application of said liquid to said sheet progresses.

4. A device for applying a succession of photographic liquids to a photographic sheet comprising, in combination, a large shallow tray having a light transmitting bottom panel, a frame structure for mounting said tray in a vertically inclined position, means for mounting a photographic sheet against said bottom panel, a trough integral with said tray adjacent the lower edge thereof and defining a plurality of compartments for collecting and containing a plurality of photographic liquids, a plurality of lights mounted on said frame behind said tray for illuminating said bottom panel and said photographic sheet mounted thereon, and means for circulating a selected one of said liquids from one of said trough compartments back onto the sheet being treated and thereafter returning to the same one of said trough compartments, whereby said liquid is recycled as the application of photographic liquid to said sheet progresses, and said liquids can be applied successively to said photographic sheet for the treatment thereof.

5. A device for applying a succession of liquids to a sheet comprising, in combination, a large shallow tray having alight transmitting bottom panel, a frame structure for mounting said tray in a vertically inclined position, means for mounting a sheet against said bottom panel, a trough integral with said tray adjacent the lower edge thereof and defining a plurality of compartments for collecting and containing a plurality of liquids, a shallow V- shaped wall panel defining the upper wall of said compartments, a plurality of lights mounted on said frame behind said tray for illuminating said bottom panel and said photographic sheet mounted thereon, and means for circulating a selected one of said liquids from one of said trough compartments back onto the sheet being treated and thereafter returning to the same one of said trough compartments, whereby said liquid is recycled as the application of said liquid to said sheet progresses.

6. A device for applying a photographic liquid to a photographic sheet comprising, in combination, a large shallow translucent plastic tray, a plurality of close.y spaced pyramidal projections formed in the bottom panel of said tray, means mounting said tray in a vertically inclined position, means holding the photographic sheet in a fiat position against the peaks of said projections on said bottom panel, means defining a liquid reservoir adjacent the lower edge or said tray for containing the photographic liquid, means mounted behind said tray for illuminating said bottom panel and sheet mounted thereon and liquid directing means including a pump connected to said trough and a flexible hose and nozzle communicating with said pump for directing liquid from said trough onto said sheet whereby said liquid is recycled as the treatment progresses and said liquid can circulate as a film between a said projections in back of said sheet so that both sides of said sheet can be treated at one time.

7. A device for applying a photographic liquid to a photographic sheet comprising, in combination, a large shallow translucent plastic tray, a substantial plurality of spaced projections extending outwardly from the bottom panel of said tray, means mounting said tray in a vertically inclined position, means holding the photographic sheet in a flat position against said projections on said bottom panel, means defining a liquid reservoir adjacent the lower edge of said tray for containing the photographic liquid, means mounted behind said tray for illuminating said bottom panel and sheet mounted thereon and liquid directing means including a pump connected to said trough and a flexible hose and nozzle communicating with said pump for directing liquid from said trough onto said sheet whereby said liquid is recycled as the treatment progresses and said liquid can be circulated as a film between said projections in back of said sheet so that both sides of said sheet can be treated at one time.

8. A device for applying a photographic liquid to a photographic sheet comprising, in combination, a large shallow translucent plastic tray, a plurality of closely spaced pyramidal projections having a base of about /8 inch square and a height of between about inch and about inch, formed in the bottom panel of said tray, means mounting said tray in a vertically inclined position, means holding the photographic sheet in a fiat position against said projections on said bottom panel, means defining a liquid reservoir adjacent the lower edge of said tray for containing the photographic liquid, means mounted behind said tray for illuminating said bottom panel and sheet mounted thereon and liquid directing means including a pump connected to said trough and a flexible hose and nozzle communicating with said pump for directing liquid from said trough onto said sheet whereby said liquid is recycled as the treatment progresses and said liquid can circulate as a film between said projection in back of said sheet so that both sides of said sheet can be treated atone time.

9. A device for supplying a succession of treating liquids to a sheet of photographic material and comprising, in combination, a relatively large shallow tray having a bottom panel, a frame structure for mounting said tray in a vertically inclined position, means for mounting a sheet of photographic material against said bottom panel, a plurality of compartments disposed beneath said tray for collecting and containing a plurality of treating liquids,

means adapted for connection selectively with certain ones of said compartments for applying the liquid contained therein to a sheet mounted on said tray, and means for collecting and guiding said so applied liquid from said tray back to the compartment from which it was taken, whereby said liquid is recycled as the application of said liquid to said sheet progresses.

. References Eited in the file of this patent UNITED STATES PATENTS 573,888 Lambert Dec. 29, 1896 647,388 Evans Apr. 10, 1900 838,167 Clawson ec. 11, 1906 1,166,378 Levy Dec. 28, 1915 2,268,457 Moore Dec. 30, 1941 2,315,452 Pifer Mar. 30, 1943 FOREIGN PATENTS 557.780 Great Britain Dec. 6. 1943

Claims (1)

1. A PHOTOGRAPHIC DEVELOPING DEVICE COMPRISING, IN COMBINATION, A HOUSING, A SHALLOW TRAY HAVING A LIGHT TRANSMITTING BOTTOM PANEL MOUNTED IN SAID HOUSING, MEANS FOR MOUNTING SAID HOUSING AND THEREBY SAID TRAY IN A VERTICALLY INCLINED POSITION, MEANS FOR MOUNTING A SHEET OF FILM AGAINST SAID BOTTOM PANEL, A TROUGH IN SAID HOUSING ADJACENT THE LOWER EDGE OF THE TRAY FOR CONTAINING A DEVELOPER LIQUID, A PANEL HINGED TO THE BACK OF SAID HOUSING, A PLURALITY OF LIGHTS MOUNTED ON SAID PANEL BEHIND SAID TRAY FOR ILLUMINATING SAID BOTTOM PANEL AND THEREBY THE FILM MOUNTED THEREON, AND MEANS COMMUNICATING WITH SAID TROUGH FOR DIRECTING DEVELOPER LIQUID FROM SAID TROUGH ONTO SAID

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